http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/paranoid-nation-how-conspiracy-theories-are-destroying-america-20110518

I'm reading the Jonathan Kay review on why intelligent people become conspiracists:

"I found that virtually all conspiracy theorists over a certain age, like, 55 or 60, whether they were birthers or truthers or whatever, are often also J.F.K. conspiracy theorists.  Often you’ll find that there was a period in their life when they lost faith in public institutions, in the mass media, in the government, in the judiciary. What happens is that once someone embraces one conspiracy theory, it shapes their entire view of the world."

Crimeny==I have NO FAITH in those institutions and haven't for a long time.  When does the rot set in?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/q-a-jonathan-kay-on-our-vast-conspiracist-subculture-20110516

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/paranoid-nation-how-conspiracy-theories-are-destroying-america-20110518

I'm reading the Jonathan Kay review on why intelligent people become conspiracists:

"I found that virtually all conspiracy theorists over a certain age, like, 55 or 60, whether they were birthers or truthers or whatever, are often also J.F.K. conspiracy theorists.  Often you’ll find that there was a period in their life when they lost faith in public institutions, in the mass media, in the government, in the judiciary. What happens is that once someone embraces one conspiracy theory, it shapes their entire view of the world."

Crimeny==I have NO FAITH in those institutions and haven't for a long time.  When does the rot set in?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/q-a-jonathan-kay-on-our-vast-conspiracist-subculture-20110516

I'm with you on this one, Bobbo.  Who among us hasn't "lost faith in public institutions, in the mass media, in the government, in the judiciary"?  Nobody that I know of.

BTW, if you click on the Top ten conspiracy theories link you get a 404 - Page cannot be found. 

[Har! -- KD]

The problem with conspiracies is you believe in hundreds but it only takes one to make you a true believer.

Ken--both links still work for me on Firefox 3.x  Maybe per the other thread, your google /address bar is being filtered? 

KD--yes, something strange going on==I was afraid the rot might be starting?

Kvolk--I have partaken in certain events that our government denied, but I didn't see any "conspiracy" to it==just denials for political/diplomatic purposes.  Everybody knew we were lying, and nobody really cared.  All just posturing.

But if I were to come across a "real" conspiracy, why would I not simply take that single conspiracy on as a stand alone event?

Lets suppose AGW is proven to be an Algore funded fraud.  Does that mean I thereafter have to believe in cold fusion?  I don't think so.  I guess one is either a conspiracy type thinker or not.

Defined:  cospiracy type thinker:  one who makes excessive connections between related but even unrelated events as if causation was thereby proven.

Kvolk--do you believe any conspiracy theory/denial position is in fact real or the truth?  Which ones?

I don't "believe" in conspiracy theories per se but I do believe in the fact that people will go to great lengths to cover their incompetency, see Watergate, cigarette industry etc. I also think that when you start assigning motives for actions you can slide right into the conspiracy mind set which is why I think if you believe one you belive another more easily. To me it seems that it is easier to not do any critical thinking then it is to do it. Once you do that and something reinforces that you repeat that as the course of least resistance.You said why if you believe one conspiracy like the AL Gore AGW one would you believe the next like cold fusion? To me that indicates you are still thinking critically so you have answered your own question, because you would still be questioning the first premise. Now I am assuming you are not discussing a criminal conspiracy which is  a different matter as it is pretty defined by the judicial system.

As to my beliefs in a 'conspiracy" I think the closest I come to that is I believe that the US has a coporate culture that permates every level of our society and because of this culture people think and act in a very homogenous way therefore it is easy for someone to leap to a conclusion that there is a group or groups of people trying to reach a preplanned goal or goals. That leap though is where the critical thinking must occur and that is why I said I get close but stop before I assign a conspiracy idea. It is just a monolithic culture which has as a consequence people acting and working toward a perceived similar self interest that if you look at it noncritical looks like a planned campaign hence "conspiracy". This is easier to believe then the more critical thought that people are willing to act and think alike on a variety of issues if you provide the right environment for that to happen.

 One of the sources of the conspiracy problem is that the media/press never get the real true story correct in the first place. Then later on when one or more of those who were present and know what in fact did happen, talk, the discrepancies emerge giving fuel to possibilities of a conspiracy. In some of these cases, damn right there was a conspiracy in effect, since what was planned was criminal, libelous, and in some cases a violation of the Geneva Convention/Treaty on Warfare.
 Conspiracies are normal and natural planned courses of action to achieve an end by a means that is unauthorized, illegal, immoral and or criminal. When it involves members of the Government, and  or the Military, we all lose a measure of the Freedoms which we hold dear and mandatory for our democracies.
 I am aware of several conspiracies, that:
- I cannot prove what I was told is the truth versus what was published in the media
- I am not in a position of need to know, and in a position to do anything about what I was told
- I am not a citizen of the country or their citizens which were involved
- and I would be putting myself at some measure of risk of reprisal if I were to "chirp"
 As one former boss I worked for knew all kinds of things that happened in the liberation of Europe  from the Nazis in WW2, but since those were "State Secrets" he took them to the grave with him!
 I also had a former neighbor in this same situation from the same theater of operations, but for another country which had been occupied. He took his wife's surname when he married his secretary at the end of WW2 in order to avoid any reprisals. He too took much to the grave as the former fourth in command of his birth country's military.
 Some of what transpired circa 1939/45 was far worse than occurred in more recent times. Only the reporting and medium is more intense.
 The families of many a WW2 soldier, sailor, airman did not learn of their fate for months. Today you watch it on the evening news during your Supper as a replay from the daytime live coverage!!
 The immorality, criminality, etc. is of concern if you are caught, and prosecuted. Not that it makes it any better or correct, but human history is rampant with plots, and subterfuge, it is our nature! So tell me how do you change human nature, or should we? Revenge will happen and in some cases it well deserved and way over due! Plus human nature is not as a result of our DNA, but rather a learned talent of various degrees of success.

Gee whiz--serious input but once again it is put upon me to walk out on thin ice:  none of us are talking about the same thing.  Once again, its definitions.

Kvolk--you sound to me to be talking more about "bias" than conspiracies, much less conspiracy theories.

Obtuser--harder to tell what you are talking about but it seems closer to mere conspiracy rather than conspiracy theories.  But....hard to tell.  You know what would really help?----give an example of what conspiracy you believe.

I think the articles, and more generally the important social issue, is people who make up conspiracies rather than accept the more obvious truth because it is propounded by the government.  I'll take two examples:  911 and War in Cambodia.  For 911, we have it on film.  Buildings hit by planes, buildings fall down.  That is the simple truth.  The conspiracy theory is that Bush blew up the buildings with various degrees of nonsense and unresolved questions to lend support but the "Conspiracy Theory" definition applies, and more to my mind:  the motives of Bush to do this are not credible.  Not credible ties very much into denial of the more simple truth.

The War in Cambodia was cited for a while once upon a time.  Nixon only had authority to conduct police operations in Vietnam and was not allowed by Congress to expand the police operation, but Nixon did instruct our forces to follow and intercept the Viet Cong in Cambodia.  There was a conspiracy to violate the law, but not a "Conspiracy Theory" against Nixon's lies as is the relevant subject here.  Here, the notion that the government would indeed follow and intercept the Viet Cong makes imminent good sense so what we have is not a "Conspiracy" but an illegal action with a denial.  And as with so many such issues, eventually the "truth" comes out if it wasn't obvious to you in the first place.

See the difference?  911 -vs- Cambodia?  Its definitional.  I believe all kinds of government conspiracies and lies.  Can't think of a single Conspiracy Theory.

Now, what are we talking about?

bobbo,

here is what I am talking about:

-the grand conspiracy theory of films, novels, and 911 truthers I do not believe exist but I do believe others think they do.
-why intelligent people think those "conspiracies" are true is the broader issue I tried to address in my previous post.

Kvolk--I'll go one more time, but no guarantee for a third:

Yes, there are people who believe.......anything.  Rather stating the obvious there.  More than a "belief" don't you think that is a "fact" as much as anything can be?

Then as to the explanation as to why intelligent people believe in conspiracy theories, you added nothing to your previous explanation that I characterized as more about bias than conspiracy and further I contrasted conspiracy per se with "Conspiracy Theories" as used in the popular press.

So---I am trying to connect with you and to advance the argument.  That doesn't happen when you just repeat yourself.  Care to advance the discussion by offering a different point of view, a different definition, an example, or a direct contradiction?

Could be fun?

bobbo,

if you really want to engage in a discussion you can't restate things I say out of context or spin them out as answers to another question not asked. I believe other people believe big conspiracies stop. you can't take that statement and blow it up into a statement that some people believe anything because that just stops the conversation as I made no such claim.  I think people believe in the grand conspiracy theories because they are intelllectual lazy and that is a easy path to walk once you go there. Thats all I had to say though I am willing to respond if you have an insight or another point you would like to make? besides the basic one that you make about my post? Why do you think intelligent people believe the grander conspiracy theories?

 OK, now I see where you are coming from. You are making a distinction between proven Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories of unproven facts/involvement.
 conspiracy Theories arise when published information about an event or condition does not fit the preconceived ideals or beliefs of a segment of the population. The Oklahoma City bombing of the Murrah Bldg. fits into this category. Various theories have arisen due to a lack of full disclosure surrounding the investigation and allegations of others involvement with ulterior motives.
 I do not claim to have insider knowledge, but have sat eating my meals in the presence of some who do. From what I heard, there is ample reason to believe that not all the facts have been released, nor have all of the conspirators been found and prosecuted! As a non citizen, I am not willing to discuss this further in a public forum, but will say that a wide ranging inquiry into the whole issue would reveal some startling new information, if the correct individuals are required to testify. One comment I will mention is that a former Viet Nam era demolitions expert [Special Forces] stated he saw the scene from the edges of the police barricades the following day and made these conclusions:
-it was a "shaped charge" explosion which required more than just a nitrate in truck bomb in the street
-access to that bldg for seveal days and hours at a time would have been necessary to place a whole lot of small charges of C4 to create this "shaped explosion!
-the air was ripe with C4 plastic explosive odors which "I" have used on many occasions and readily recognize instantly
-McVey and accomplices were not trained to the this level or ability to have done this on their own
-allegations of what the bldg contained includes the documents for the prosecution into the "Whitewater Affair"  
 Given the nature of these comments and a few more by others present of a similar former Special Forces status, I believe that there has been a cover up, and that a so called other conspirator has not been found and prosecuted! Plus any previous inquiries have been unable or unwilling to delve into the full scenario! And finally, if this did involve anyone from the Administration of the day, then those women, children, and lower level employees were martyrs!
It also, if true, paints a more terrible picture of McVey, et al., they were dupes and suckers for allowing themselves to be used!
 As for 9/11, that is not a viable  conspiracy theory when you know and understand the material science involved in steel making. Once the tons of jet fuel caught fire, the updraft of air source in the elevator shafts turned those towers into giant blast furnaces! Once concrete is heated above a certain temperature, the molecules release the water molecules that bound the cement powder into concrete. Just take a cutting torch without triggering the Oxygen stream but let the little flame cones touch some concrete and it spalls explosively! [be sure to wear safety glasses!]
Plus steel as it rises in temperature after exceeding 1400 Degrees F and approaches 2400 F loses strength down to 24% of its normal strength. Rolling of forging temperatures of 2250 to 2300 F depend on this property for malleability.
Above 2400 F approx. + or -, the steel begins to burn in the Oxygenated environment. [Just like the sparklers on the 4th of July!] The twin towers did not need any other demolition means to end up the way they did, in my understanding of the chemical and physical reactions present at that time.

KVolk, I agree with your "intellectually lazy" comment 100%. When proposing any theory, it is vital to include and account for all known and verifiable facts/data! One must not ignore evidence just to make a situation fit your personal views of what you think happened! There are numerous studies of how eye witnesses have testified in error due to their minds making assumptions to fit their personal bias. That is why we have appeal courts and crime labs!

Obtuser, I agree with you it's just this topic really didn't have any more depth for me other than what I have already posted but I do try to respond to anyone when they mention something I posted. Not to satifying I know when someone wants to engage in a debate with figures and links and theories proposed and refuted but I am just being honest about what I meant in my post.

In a way, its rewarding and instructive for me to see the same lack of agreement on what the three of us are "trying" to talk about on this "Conspiracy Theory" issue as we had on the Eugenics discussion.  It is definitional, we all have our own, and we can't come together so that any dialectic can take place.  I like that as it reinforces my harping on having to define the terms of a discussion before any progress will be made.  I had thought eugenics was all about the emotions surrounding the issue.  I was wrong for the same disagreement/confusion/mismatch occurs here.  With this mismatch, I am sure that excellent points that each of us make are honestly lost on the others because we are in essence speaking in foreign tongues.  Too much discussion is like that.  Reminds me of the joke about a tourist who cannot be understood by the locals so he says the very same thing over but louder.  And if you travel, you see that very thing take place.  DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

And I always crack myself up.  Its a good thing.