Tommorrow the U.S. Supreme Court will hear a case that will either reinforce our rights against police entry into our homes without warrent or it will further erode our protection under the Fourth Amendment.

The case stems from an incident that happened in a small town 20 minutes north of where I live.  Here's a local article about the case.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635201899,00.html

I find it odd that four Brigham City officers responded to a loud party . . . or maybe not.

I have a friend that has attempted several business ventures in Brigham City over the years -- sporting goods, computer servicing, web design -- he never made much money, but he provided jobs to several local kids.  When he closed his sporting goods store, he converted the building into a weekend dance hall that catered to teenagers.  He had some trouble with gang members, so he hired an off-duty Brigham City police officer as a bouncer.  No more gang problem.

But it seems the head of the Brigham City police department doesn't like kids having a good time.  He had his own four-member faction within the department, of which my friend's bouncer was not a part.  These officers paid a visit to the dance hall every weekend.  They would walk through the establishment looking for drugs and harassing the kids.  They never found drugs at his business, because he worked hard at keeping it clean.  His complaints to City Hall got the Mayor's sympathy, but no action.  When word got back to him that the police chief called him a "known" drug dealer, he just gave up and closed shop.

I have mixed feelings about police in general.  I have dealt with those that are professional and deserving of respect and support.  But I have also seen those that are no better than thugs.  I use to think that the latter group was no more than two or three percent of the police force.  Now I wonder if it is more like 20 to 30 percent.

Here is another local story in which a man died while being arrested.  I give two links showing the incident from both sides.  The first appears to be from the report filed by the police, the second from an interview with the victim's family.
http://www.sltrib.com/contentlist/ci_3737969
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=221578

So, how much power do we want our police to have?  Do we reign them in, give them more power to do their job, or is the balance about right?

To answer the question in the title of your post, my answer would be an unequivocal "no". But this example makes it an interesting question; to limit myself solely to what is said in the article and assume that it is providing all of the relevant facts in their entirety, then I would have to agree that in this instance, very few people would find it objectionable to enter a residence without a warrant when the clear purpose was to aid someone threatened by violence.

In the same breath, I'm also very skeptical about the possibility that this article IS presenting a complete account.

At present, I'm with you in that I tend to be very cautious when someone suggests that increased powers are needed to provide effective law enforcement, and not because I would not support such an effort when its effectiveness could be demonstrated. Historically, the public tends to be unable to grasp that increased powers do not, by themselves, equate to increased effectiveness and frequently give rise to abuses that are later rationalized as unforeseen in light of the good intentions behind the effort.

Given the present state of affairs, except in instances where I can feel confident that such decisions have been made with the benefit of all due diligence and sound reasoning, I'd feel much safer as a general rule maintaining the status quo and periodically making sure my aim is still decent.

On the whole, I respect the police and believe the vast majority of them to be very professional. Yes, some do make mistakes such as in this case. That does not mean they did not have the best intentions in mind, only that they got out of control.

There are some bad cops that are corrupt or falsify evidence, but only enough to give a lot of good cops a bad name. I have met very few cops in my life that were not professional or tolerated bad cops on the force.

When the first Appeal Court threw out the cases, the AG should have accepted the rulings and gone home. To continue to appeal this is ridiculous and as the Supreme Court to take it after three State courts denied it shows lack of proper judgement on their part.

On the whole I'd never trust a cop, even one I know.

This is a very interesting case in all reality, however Justice Stevens even said that the Unanimous decision of the SC in this case proved that this really didnt belong here.  I have trust in how our supreme court works, maybe the real question is whether we trust the court system, and not the police force.  If you want to hear the real account of what happened go to www.supremecourtus.gov and under merit briefs go to Brigham City v Stuart.  The courts slip opinion of this case is also avaliable under the opinions>Slip Opions>Brigham City v. Stuart.
It is bulky reading but the arguments are interesting and I really think that If you are going to debate over what should happen in the case or what was decided the whole story helps.  The news article that was posted is not quite what happened.  And in the slip opinion Justice Stevens brings up an interesting point.  The evidence needed to prosecute the offences was obtained before the illegal entry by police.
Bruce

This is a hard topic to make a call on, however I do feel like I have some insight that may help spur the debate.

I am currently a student in Rochester, NY and I am actually afraid of the police here. They tailgate, speed, blatantly misuse their power, and are some of the most illmannered and abruptly awful people I have ever met. I have been profiled because of my race and a cop has even given me the finger. I would never pull over for a cop in an area with no one around for fear of losing my life.
However, my family is in a suburb of the Dallas/Ft. Worth area and the police there are courteous, kind, and respectful of the laws they are entrusted to enforce. Talking to a policeman in a coffee shop or asking for directions is enjoyable and they are generally just nice people eager to help.

Why is this? Why is there such a variance between the behaviours? The environment they work in? The administration they serve under? What do you guys think?

On a side note: I also have lived in Vancouver, British Columbia and the police there actually became friends of us kids who needed a ride home after a little too much alcohol. I don't really count that experience here since, let's face it, Canada is just not even remotely like the U.S. sometimes.

This is a hard topic to make a call on, however I do feel like I have some insight that may help spur the debate.

I am currently a student in Rochester, NY and I am actually afraid of the police here. They tailgate, speed, blatantly misuse their power, and are some of the most illmannered and abruptly awful people I have ever met. I have been profiled because of my race and a cop has even given me the finger. I would never pull over for a cop in an area with no one around for fear of losing my life.
However, my family is in a suburb of the Dallas/Ft. Worth area and the police there are courteous, kind, and respectful of the laws they are entrusted to enforce. Talking to a policeman in a coffee shop or asking for directions is enjoyable and they are generally just nice people eager to help.

Why is this? Why is there such a variance between the behaviours? The environment they work in? The administration they serve under? What do you guys think?

On a side note: I also have lived in Vancouver, British Columbia and the police there actually became friends of us kids who needed a ride home after a little too much alcohol. I don't really count that experience here since, let's face it, Canada is just not even remotely like the U.S. sometimes.

The neighborhood has a lot to do with.  If all you deal with is shitheads all the time, its hard to turn off that attitude when you deal with normal people.  The culture of the area served is also a factor.  In some parts of the country, the people are simply ill mannered, no matter their profession.

gq, You make a valid point. That however, is the difference between professionalism and bullying. Any police that are not totally professional should not be in uniform.

gq, You make a valid point. That however, is the difference between professionalism and bullying. Any police that are not totally professional should not be in uniform.

Agreed!

Do you trust anybody?  Because the police are the same as everybody else.  Except they document what happened.   Do I trust my neighbor?  Well not really.  I dont trust police any more or less than the average joe.  So I guess I am neutral on it.

Jim

No, I don't trust police officers.  I have never had a positive experience with a police officer and I avoid them when possible.

No, I don't trust police officers.  I have never had a positive experience with a police officer and I avoid them when possible.

I would have to agree with this statement.

I work as a civil slave and service "police" agency computers.  When I ask them what that bootleg copy of whatever software is doing on their PC, their standard answer is, "I don't have to obey the law, I AM the law!"

WELL,
Lets see.
I understand the points of view.
I also know that I goto the Nearby coffee shop and sit down and Talk to everyone, including the cops in the area.
This town only has 3000 persons in it, not counting cattle.
The IDEAL cop, needs to be Nosey, knowledgable, and ABIT paranoid.
the problem we get is the GUN happy, control freaks, that WANT to carry a gun, and MAKE other DO as they wish.
BUT, in this area, they NEED to understand a few things.  BE HUMAN, and BE NICE, and you might survive and KEEP your job.
If you aren't NICE, we tend to MOVE them out, pretty fast, as WE PAY there salaries.
If they are MEAN, "there is a field right over there, and its going to be A LONG time, before they find the body", IS/WAS/STILL will be the mentality of this area.

the PROBLEMS we have in this area, is the Old drug wars.
when they found a place that drugs were being USED, the place generally got SHUT DOWN.  Including the Video game parlor, the pizza parlor, the cinema, the Dances, and everything ELSE.  and NONE of it has come back.
when you have NOTHING to do, you FIND something to do, Legal or ILLEGAL.  Hobbies and crafts COST money to do(Not as they were in the past), so they stay home, and do WHAT EVER to make time go by.  Drinking, Toking, smoking, TV, video games, or go 20 miles to a bigger city, and TRY to make it home, WITH OUT getting a ticket...

Iv talked to a few, about making a Recreation HALL here in town, and charging $1 to get in, with $1 food and $1 drinks, getting the cops to help monitor it, for dancing, parties, And contacting MS, SONY, Nintendo to help install a video parlor, and MAYBE a big screen.  But, I cant get those I NEED to have interest.
I need the assistance to get it going, because IF the city don't want it, it will be Killed out right, If I cant get the Cops to help, it will become a DEN and we have a few gangs here(Mexican and White suprem and moral Maj), If I cant get the kids to SEE it and Use it, the odds are it will Die on the vine from lack of use.

So whom is responsible.  WE ALL are.
1. for letting them do it TO US.
2. for DOING it to OURSELVES.
3. For US, doing it to our KIDS and not showing them what WE learned from the past.

Its like the OLD way of LETTING the people set off ANY fire work they wanted.
They would wet down a field, and tell everyone to Bring there fireworks to light them off.
cops to help out and a fire truck JUST IN CASE.
Didn't matter what you shot up, or set off, as LONG as it stayed in the field.

that was co-operation, and enjoyment.
Paranoid cops are a BAD thing.
Paranoid Populace is WORSE, as the cops have to be to CARFUL and gun happy.

PS.
the ones I hate the MOST, are...THE LAW is the LAW, and I WONT bend it. types.

: Improbus  June 30, 2006, 06:51:48 AM

No, I don't trust police officers.  I have never had a positive experience with a police officer and I avoid them when possible.

I would have to agree with this statement.

I work as a civil slave and service "police" agency computers.  When I ask them what that bootleg copy of whatever software is doing on their PC, their standard answer is, "I don't have to obey the law, I AM the law!"

Come on now, you have never used bootleged software?  Ever.

And I think Kosh made the 3 edged sword quote before Sheridan did.

C'mon gq, there is a bit of a difference between using some bootleg / pirated software on your personal computer and a government agency or private corporation.

Can a three edged sword cut watermelon into even pieces?