Simple answer: Because they only have misinformation and misquotes to argue with. Just maybe there is some "brain washing" at play here.

A good video right on point.  NOT a great debate, but about the best debate you can ever see.  Watch Barney Frank sweep the floor with George Will and Paul Ryan in Part 3 at 8 minutes, but the whole thing is a cut above the normal palaver.  "Is Our Government Too Big?"  Its from This Week on ABC with Christiane Amanpour--excellent in Full Screen:  http://abcnews.go.com/watch/this-week/SH559082/VD55158848/this-week-1218--the-great-debate

Upon closer inspection, the Forbes list reveals that six Waltons–all children (one daughter-in-law) of Sam or James “Bud” Walton the founders of Wal-Mart–were on the list. The combined worth of the Walton six was $69.7 billion in 2007–which equated to the total wealth of the entire bottom thirty percent!  ///  And this is all inherited wealth.  These 6 people did nothing more or less than the other 90 Million people.  So, ok==call it a lottery, but its NOT A LOTTERY:  its the result of years of tax and spend policy of the USA. 

The point of this thread:  why do so many Republican Voters cut their own throat by voting against their own financial interests?

How many of the bottom 30% vote this inequity because you know, they don't want the government to interfere with their Freedom?  Freedom to be poor?  Ha, ha.===what dopes.

Also documented:  1:  Waltons
2:  In 2007 (the most recent SCF) the cumulative wealth of the Forbes 400 was $1.54 trillion or roughly the same amount of wealth held by the entire bottom fifty percent of American families.
3:  The share of wealth held by the top fifth is about 87.2 percent while the bottom four-fifths share the remaining 12.8 percent of wealth

AND of course--the numbers are trending even worse.  WHY would ANYONE vote to reduce the inheritance tax and pay for it by cutting their own social safety net services?  WHY??

Silly Hoomans is the only answer.

https://www.google.com/search?q=University+of+California-Berkely%E2%80%99s+Center+on+Walton+Wage+and+Employment+Dynamics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=University+of+California-Berkeley%E2%80%99s+Center+on+Walton+Wage+and+Employment+Dynamics&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=mJx&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&ei=tWj2TsKzL6PKiAK4q6WMDQ&start=10&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=df6a77e1f49d3ca4&biw=1025&bih=415

Is it fair/functional/helpful to "divide" the American/Voting Public into the Super Rich and everyone else? Is that Class Warfare? Is it class warfare if it is the truth? Is it class warfare if the Rich have already won and are merely walking the battle field shooting the wounded?

EVEN IF you were part of the 1% there are good arguments you should be against the War. but if you are in the 99%--you truly are cutting your own throat whenever you vote Republican===even when the Republican is the "better" candidate. Observe the party discipline the Republicans maintain==holding America Hostage to secure more tax breaks/wealth distribution for the Super Rich. Why do you do that?

I see these charts all the time. Never collected them. This blog will be my/"our?" repository:



So, c'mon Republicans. Are you going to end the Death Tax because Paris Hilton needs another diamond choke chain for her Chihauhau or what? What have you got against your own kiddies getting a decent job and a life outside of the gutter being created by the Super Rich?

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/21/9612512-chart-the-sweat-of-your-brow



The same kind of chart with the same upward slope can be made across the board:  you name it:  food, shelter, education, healthcare, cars, gas.  Maybe computers, clothes, homes showing a down turn or more steady?

It all goes to real quality of life issues.  The "life style" of Americans being maintained first by both parents working and then by borrowing against home equity:  all used up.

Now, the slow decline into also ran economies.  THAT bubble is going to break some day too, Occupy Movements just the first real protest to break thru the lame stream media blackout.

It doesn't need to be this bleak, but it will be worse than needed given what the vested interests focus on===as supported by the throat cutting electoral voting against their own self interests.  Do you really enjoy working more and more for less and less just to try and have the civil rights of other people taken away?

Silly hoomans.

This can be seen as "off point" BUT the point of this thread is to evaluate one's OWN opinions and how you relate to reality.  To that end, finding out as much as you can about yourself is all part and parcel of the process.  To that end, the follow personality test about "How Happy are You" is relevant in different ways to different degrees for different people on different issues.  Its good to "know" yourself as you bounce off the various social issues that apply.

I scored a C+.  For some reason, that gave me a positive bounce==then a negative residual, then another positive reaction.  C+===thats not suicidal right?  =========as always:  Ha, ha.

http://apps.bluezones.com/happiness/

[ Image link here:  https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4UCLk26JKHQZzAUkXSPux2qhXaQIF_SyA-nRrxVOHGmr4TjI7TQ
Image from website:  http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/04/lesson-for-manufacturing-jobs-from.html which has a few other charts, discussion, good comment section]

We are all aware of job loss/outsourcing, the decline of manufacturing in the USA but a picture still is worth a thousand words.  I did not realize before how steady the decline was:  thru Dems and Publs, good times and bad===as the world economy equalizes, them that used to be on top sink to the middle/average, hopefully not too far below if we become "financiers/swindlers" to the world?

Zbigniew Brzezinski made an interesting comment on Book TV yesterday:  that China would never become the World Leader in the same way that USA had done, was thinking it would be in the future.  Its not in their character and they have potentially massive problems internally of the type the Western world doesn't face at all.  Democracy, with all its faults, is different and better for "leadership" than centrally controlled oligarchs.  Good to be reminded of that--but still sounds a bit too rosy and misses the point that Nations can act against their own interests==HAH--haven't we been showing that for several decades?  Endless Wars?  Rise of the Corporations?  Degradation of our Civil Liberties?  A downward spiral for sure.  Why do we vote these bastards in?  C'mon values voters--why ya doing this?

(((EDIT--it does remind me of the job percentage curve of those in agriculture?  in the 1700's it was near 100% and today around 3%?  Something like that and for many of the same reasons:  increased mechanization and productivity making it possible for fewer to provide all that is needed==be it food or mp3 players.  Even foreign imports and such.  Yes, lots of similarities.  We are raised to think "worth" is based on work==but what happens when there is TRULY not enough work?  I recall Mechanics Illustrated Covers with "What will we do with all the Free Time?" but the unstated assumption was that somehow everyone with leisure time would have the wherewithal/access to this time==not just the working few.  Ha, ha.  No matter what it is==the dead hand of history will strangle most of the newborns.))

If we look at a few other things...

They keep putting more money into the system, but the products KEEP a solid value, and become higher priced.
They keep making the Value of the DOLLAR LESS, which increases the price of products.
Its a FAKE market.   The VALUE of the items and goods, and property has STAYED about the same.  its the lower WAGES that have been impacted.

THAT is nationally...

INTERNATIONALLY, very little has happened, until the last 10 years.  those other countries have found out that USA corps pay good money..only to sell to USA Citizens, OVER PRICED CRAP.

ECA--I don't understand WHAT you are saying.  "Solid Value" is a meaningless concept.  If 10 years ago it took 10 man hours to make a good and today 100 of better quality units can be made at 10% of the cost and 1 man hour to make ((the case for so many consumer goods especially those built around a chip)) what do any of your equatables mean?  Its always a rough measure, but all we have to make those judgments is money.

suck it up.

lets do it this way...

In 1970 a product 'x' had a $1 value.
They dumped a ton of money into the economy
'x' went up in price...but the value is the same...wages didnt move.
They dump more money into the economy...
'x' goes up in price again, as it has a solid point in COST..
Wages didnt move at the bottom.

Insert any word/product/stock for 'x'...if it has a fixed value, it will always raise with the insertion of more money into the economy.
its the same with GOLD.  insert money, the Value goes up..it SEEMS.  but you have devalued the dollar.
If another market in Japan, BASES there money on the USA Dollar, they are affected also..  IF they do not wish to have a HIGHER VALUE they have to DEFLATE their money also.  Other wise the costs in the market will rise.

Its all artificial, except for those that PLAY with it.  who does it hurt...the Lower wage earners, who didnt get a raise to MATCH the Value of the money.  Lower wages get LESS now then they did 20-30 years ago..  Wages on TOP have been adjusted to reflect the economy.

ECA--ok, fine.  I still don't have a clear vision of what you think is obvious.  How does it relate to the toil index at Reply #19 above?  Who cares about money/value or whatever when what we have to do is "work" to get anything?

Its not all a pain in the butt though.  Here is one of the most beautiful video clips I have come across.  That Island below the geese right at the start looks like a bit of heaven to me.  Who lives there?  Or what "institution" is that?

http://www.kontraband.com/videos/29948/Common-Cranes-Fly-Over-Venice/#show

[ Image link here:  https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4UCLk26JKHQZzAUkXSPux2qhXaQIF_SyA-nRrxVOHGmr4TjI7TQ
Image from website:  http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2010/04/lesson-for-manufacturing-jobs-from.html which has a few other charts, discussion, good comment section]

bobbo,

How much does percentage of U.S. labor force mean when talking about manufacturing? I would think absolute job count might mean more. Or, perhaps percentage of world manufacturing jobs in the U.S. would be the right measure, graphed over the same time period of course.

The problem I have with the percentage of U.S. labor force in manufacturing jobs is that the percentage of the world labor force in manufacturing jobs may also be declining. Even with the increase in manufacturing in China, the world population is increasing while the amount of manufacturing jobs being performed by robots is also increasing. I would think that overall, percentage of the world population employed in manufacturing positions is probably on a steep decline. Ditto for farming jobs and for the same reason of mechanization.

Just a thought. It's purely based on logic and my own preconceived notions and opinions. I have no data and do not claim to really know. I just think that the single graph you posted doesn't seem to tell me enough.

(google break)

Well, here's one article agreeing with me. Though, I do not know this source and do not claim that a single article really makes my point. Further, it would not explain loss of U.S. jobs in the technology sector that are going to India and other countries. I am only discussing manufacturing jobs in this particular post.

http://www.automationworld.com/semiconductors/outsourcing-not-culprit-manufacturing-job-loss

Scott, you raise an excellent point.  Good to keep in mind, thank you.  Excessive to say that "Outsourcing Not the Culprit in Manufacturing Job Loss"===OF COURSE it is.  Not the whole story, but a part of it.  Same as continuing tax benefits to outsource jobs from the USA===not the whole story, just a part of it.  Surely we can think of, and if not write about, more than one factor being in play?

Word for the millennium:  multifactorial.  Comes into play so many times.

Scott, you raise an excellent point.  Good to keep in mind, thank you.  Excessive to say that "Outsourcing Not the Culprit in Manufacturing Job Loss"===OF COURSE it is.  Not the whole story, but a part of it.  Same as continuing tax benefits to outsource jobs from the USA===not the whole story, just a part of it.  Surely we can think of, and if not write about, more than one factor being in play?

Word for the millennium:  multifactorial.  Comes into play so many times.

Agreed. None of this is the whole picture. We're indeed multifuct.

Seeing a graph of global manufacturing jobs as a percentage of all global jobs in conjunction with this one would help to eliminate the noise and see the real decline in the U.S. after adjusting for the world decline, thus allowing us to get some idea of how many manufacturing jobs were lost to other countries versus lost to other factors. Similarly, I would like to see the two relevant graphs for technology jobs. Though they have been around for a shorter time, the decline in technology jobs, which are generally better than manufacturing jobs, may be even steeper, especially if one counts H1-B employees and conslutants as non-U.S. jobs, which they are. I have worked with some very good people on H1-Bs and do not want to take anything away from them. But, importing workers to do the job is not the same thing as creating jobs for those who already live here.

ECA--ok, fine.  I still don't have a clear vision of what you think is obvious.  How does it relate to the toil index at Reply #19 above?  Who cares about money/value or whatever when what we have to do is "work" to get anything?

Its not all a pain in the butt though.  Here is one of the most beautiful video clips I have come across.  That Island below the geese right at the start looks like a bit of heaven to me.  Who lives there?  Or what "institution" is that?

http://www.kontraband.com/videos/29948/Common-Cranes-Fly-Over-Venice/#show

You dont get that when money is injected into the economy, that PRICES RISE?  And wages DIDNT?
Money has been injected many times, and wages never went up.
Property values went up to HOLD their value.
Homes went up to reflect the cost of materials...
Food prices went up...but wages were not affected?

In the last 10-15 years, Value went up over 50-100%, and wages?  not that much.  only once did they go up $2..
MOST goods reflect the SAME value as they did, in the 70-80's...JUST that the injection of money into the economy has made it look WORSE...but wages didnt reflect the increases in prices.