A desire for life to have value isn't an arguement for theism..

I personally believe the value and point of life is in life itself. Do I wish there was an afterlife? Therefore it must exist? No. I personally don't believe in one.

I can't bother reading the pages and pages of this post. But I would like to say, I am an atheist. My personally belief conflicts with most peoples. Does that bother me? No. I would be a happier person if more people didn't take theistic beliefs as a given in anyone who is a good person.

I think Shakespeare said it best "even the devil can quote the scriptures for his purposes"

He who doubts me, go read Matt 6-5 to 6-8. Now bring something else back to the big boy table other than your bible. You can't. All you can bring is psuedo science, warm fuzzy feelings and an idea. We all develop our crutches to get us through life. If yours is the bible, good for you. Just don't expect me to react well when it is being shoved in my face.

I consider myself a good person based on my acts. That I don't believe, well how could I not in face of evidence that contradicts the bible. If the fact that I behaved well, better than most christians, but don't get dressed up Sundays makes me a bad person, and I go to hell, so be it. Iit can't be much worse than what I have faced here on earth.

What is hell? Having to listen to Dvorak and read his blog all the time?

nuff said

A desire for life to have value isn't an arguement for theism..

I personally believe the value and point of life is in life itself. Do I wish there was an afterlife? Therefore it must exist? No. I personally don't believe in one.

Hey, I'm back. 

Theism doesn't come from the desire for life to have value, but rather the belief that life has value.  Where does the belief that life has value come from?  I don't know, maybe you can answer as you have stated that you believe life has value as well.

I do not believe an afterlife exists merely because I wish it did exist.  Wishes don't make things true, of course.

I do not understand your belief that the "point of life is in life itself"... I have heard this many times before but I have never understood it... is it possible to explain it better?  It reminds me of the quote "art for the sake of art" which is nonsense.  If the point of life is life, that seems to be saying there is no point.  Where do your moral values come from?  Do people have moral values for the sake of moral values?  I certainly don't believe so.  I believe everything has a reason, even if I am not aware of what those reasons are.  To say that life should be lived for the sake of itself is ultimately empty... where is the substance? 

This is self evident, though.

If life had no value, you'd end it.

There's a tremendous amount to do and enjoy.

Existential crisis' to be had.

That it ends doesn't change that.

Sure it'll suck when it happens.

But I don't plan on being around to worry about it.

There's a tremendous amount to do and enjoy.

The value of life is then not "life itself", but in temporary feelings of pleasure.  Suicide is purely justified with this viewpoint when one cannot find pleasure, as is fighting, stealing, and murder when they can be gotten away with if they will help to bring about pleasure.  Guilt would be an irrational feeling, only suffocating the pleasure with thoughts that don't matter.  Nothing should be done or pursued that does not ultimately result in pleasure.  Care and love for other people become irrational when they do not bring about pleasure, thus they are based only on the pleasure they may result from.

Is this right?

Is the difference between good and evil simply a matter of believing in God?

Is it possible to find value or meaning in life without doing so?

Is it possible to be moral?

If they are solely dependant on God, then anyone who doesn't believe in God will not have them.

Subsequently, anyone who does will threaten that belief.

If that's the case, then you'll wind up thinking I'm a bad person no matter how I present myself, because it will be the only way to reconcile your faith.

Theres no way you can justify any of this as an unavoidable conclusion of anything I've said so far.

Makes far more sense to ask yourself why its so important to think ill of someone because they don't share your faith, though. Do you really think anyone who doesn't believe in God is a sociopath?

You're now asking me to justify myself against your imaginary assumptions, though. That's pretty out there.

Is the difference between good and evil simply a matter of believing in God?

That's certainly a good part of it when the very definitions of good and evil are wrapped up in the notion of God.

Is it possible to find value or meaning in life without doing so?

No.

Is it possible to be moral?

Nope.  Nor is it possible to be immoral since the word becomes meaningless.

If they are solely dependant on God, then anyone who doesn't believe in God will not have them.

Exactly.

Subsequently, anyone who does will threaten that belief.

Threaten?  Why threaten?  More like disagree with and regard as wrong and ultimately evil.

If that's the case, then you'll wind up thinking I'm a bad person no matter how I present myself, because it will be the only way to reconcile your faith.

No, I don't, and never will, think you're a bad person.  I just think your current beliefs are wrong.

Theres no way you can justify any of this as an unavoidable conclusion of anything I've said so far.

Conclusion?  Nothing has really been concluded.

Makes far more sense to ask yourself why its so important to think ill of someone because they don't share your faith, though. Do you really think anyone who doesn't believe in God is a sociopath?

Why are you assuming I think ill of you?  I don't.  I believe you are a good person with illogical beliefs.  I think most people who say they don't believe in God don't realize that many of their actions and beliefs actually do rely on the notion of God.  After all, you obviously have an understanding of a difference between good and evil.  Yet you cannot understand where it comes from for you are trying to define it without God.  You have been and will continue to be unsuccessful.  This won't make you a bad evil person.  However, it will make your beliefs incomplete, illogical, and insubstantial.

You're now asking me to justify myself against your imaginary assumptions, though. That's pretty out there.

Imaginary assumptions?

Sorry. Those were rhetorical questions.

The most important is not.

Do you actually believe that I am an atheist?

I don't know if I actually believe that anyone believes in God. Really, its a moot point, but I've always treated it as though they at least believed in something that was true for them.

If you can't actually believe that I'm an atheist, though, there's no where for this conversation to go.

On the assumption that you believe what you are telling me, though, then at least you're encountering something YOU don't believe in for a change.

Nor does it matter what you attribute it to. I see no difference between your words and mine; the definitions remain the same. You ascribe some difference to your own that I don't have any means of perceiving, though, and you can't actually explain, except to insist they're there.

Every attribute that you've ascribed to atheists you've ascribed to me. (And no, we're not sadistic, immoral baby eaters, but that was still pretty warped)

Which is why I said that it would be threaten your belief, and you'd end up thinking what you had to in order to avoid re-considering it.

I'm at the limit to which I can figure this out, myself.

One request, though? Look up the word logic, and examine it a little? I am pretty careful about form, but this is something that would only be illogical to you. To me, its asking me to speculate into the unknown.

What else am I gonna do but draw a blank?

Do you actually believe that I am an atheist?

Do you understand what atheism truly implies?  You seem to think that you are an atheist, but you still hold faith in a difference between good and evil, moral and immoral, right and wrong.  You hold up two beliefs that cannot be logically linked: that there is no God and that there is a difference between good and evil.  Simply saying that you are an atheist does make you an atheist, you must also believe in the implications of a Godless existence.  But you do not.  You are not an atheist and you seem to despise true atheism.  You love and hold dear what God's existence implies and then you deny He exists so that you can call yourself an atheist.  But you are not.  You're just unwilling to cross certain bridges in logic, and then you deny they exist and make yourself believe it.  I wish I could know why.

I don't know if I actually believe that anyone believes in God.

You admit that you don't know what you actually believe.  Hmmm, that was a bit obvious.

Dude, its bad enough that you're unwilling to consider any point of view but your own.

If you want to think I've been dishonest or insincere, I really can't help that. You also can't take the position you have and claim that it doesn't rest on this assumption.

Your unwillingness to acknowledge this has done NOTHING for your credibility.

Like I said, you can think whatever you want.

Bad enough to try and BS me. Why would you BS yourself?

You've already demonstrated that you're unwilling to consider anything but what your point of view in the first place. Doesn't matter to me, but you also have no reason to go making any assumptions about mine.

The next time you run into someone with no respect for your beliefs?

You think about how little you've shown for mine.

Dude, its bad enough that you're unwilling to consider any point of view but your own.

What?  Just because I don't agree with you means I'm not considering your view points?  Did you think everyone you ever talked to would change their minds and instantly think you right? 

If you want to think I've been dishonest or insincere, I really can't help that. You also can't take the position you have and claim that it doesn't rest on this assumption.

I don't think you've been dishonest and insincere.  Why do you keep making assumptions about what I think of you?  Are you not reading what I have written carefully?  You are honest and a morally good person, you're just confused about your beliefs, which is why I guess you always try to not respond to the actual substance of my posts, but try to turn this into some personal thing about me just not liking you.

Your unwillingness to acknowledge this has done NOTHING for your credibility.

I can't acknowledge your false assumptions about what I think about you.  Get over yourself!  I actually do believe your beliefs are just wrong and it has nothing to do with you personally!  Why is that so hard for you to believe?

Like I said, you can think whatever you want.

Gee thanks, I was waiting for permission.

Bad enough to try and BS me. Why would you BS yourself?

Oops... you caught me, there goes my plan... 

You've already demonstrated that you're unwilling to consider anything but what your point of view in the first place. Doesn't matter to me, but you also have no reason to go making any assumptions about mine.

If it didn't matter to you, you wouldn't have posted what you did.  I have considered your point of view, and that's how I know it is wrong and fruitless.

The next time you run into someone with no respect for your beliefs?

You think about how little you've shown for mine.

Oh, ouch, the pinches of guilt are just making me dizzy... come on! Do you walk through life offended at everybody who does not believe what you believe?  And do you respect the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Anyway, it's obvious you are not capable of participating in a true conversation about your beliefs for two reasons: 1) you don't even understand your own beliefs (you are not an atheist), and 2) you take it too personally.

Thanks for playing!

Remember, next time you try to tell someone you know their own mind better than they do themselves?

1) Be prepared to provide some support for the assertion.
2) Make certain that you have some basis for assuming they've given their convictions any less consideration than you have your own.

1) Be prepared to provide some support for the assertion.
2) Make certain that you have some basis for assuming they've given their convictions any less consideration than you have your own.

Oh good, I did all that... you must have missed it, but its still there if you ever want to actually think about your beliefs.

Do I win a prize?

Is God Dead?