The one with flipping a coin, kinda does but you need a better story. When I use "stories" there always clear and make sense, so work on that.

The point is that if there is even the smallest chance of possibility of something, then it is possible (and can be multiplied to increase the chances).  You therefore can't argue that "the chance of such and such is so small, there must be God."  You would have to argue "there is no chance at all of such and such, there must be God."

Forgetting everything else in this thread about evolution:
How does positing a god as a creator of everything answer anything?  It simply begs the question….well, who/what created god?

Also, Surreptitious, you have committed so many fallacies throughout your posts, there are too many to list.  However, I do enjoy your basic mentality of circular logic:

Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know?"
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."

Well if you guys wanted to argue about how there must also be a creator of God well.... then there would be no point in arguing because it would go to infinity.I say who cares who created God right? Its the Earth, Earth is tangible God is not. So thats all I can say.

Well if you guys wanted to argue about how there must also be a creator of God well.... then there would be no point in arguing because it would go to infinity.I say who cares who created God right? Its the Earth, Earth is tangible God is not. So thats all I can say.

Yes the argument could go on and on. Again, I would like to point out that I have no interest in converting anyone to anything. I just want to make it clear that religion is not required to be a good person. I have heard preachers make all kinds of statements that atheist are evil, untrustworthy, unpatriotic etc. These things are outright lies. All people should be judged by the content of their character. (thanks MLK)

I really hope that we can agree on that.

I just want to make it clear that religion is not required to be a good person.

I suppose it depends on your definition of 'religion' ... if you believe there is a difference between "good" and "bad" (which I would assume you do since you say "good person") then you do have beliefs and values that govern your actions.  I would like to ask: where do these values come from?  How do you determine the difference between "good" and "bad"?  I'm not saying that God is the answer, or that I have the right answer myself; I'm simply curious as to how an atheist would answer the question.

I suppose it depends on your definition of 'religion' ... if you believe there is a difference between "good" and "bad" (which I would assume you do since you say "good person") then you do have beliefs and values that govern your actions.  I would like to ask: where do these values come from?  How do you determine the difference between "good" and "bad"?  I'm not saying that God is the answer, or that I have the right answer myself; I'm simply curious as to how an atheist would answer the question.

Only a Sociopath doesn't know the difference between good and evil. Unfortunately  there has been in history many times when evil happens.... sometimes under the guise of religion. The Crusades, The Inquisistion, massacres of Huguenots, the Nazis were fond of using religion, and todays troubles are because people of religion do not see the difference between "good" and "evil." Maybe it is that sometimes the definitions change depending circumstance, maybe it is the belief that God will forgive. Atheists do not have that comfort. This is the one chance to do right and good things in this world. The only person you have to answer to is yourself. There is no greater chance of good over evil in a theist than an atheist.

Only a Sociopath doesn't know the difference between good and evil.

Well... that doesn't really answer the question...  How do you know?  It seems like you're just saying "oh, come on, everyone knows!"  How?

Atheists do not have that comfort. This is the one chance to do right and good things in this world. The only person you have to answer to is yourself. There is no greater chance of good over evil in a theist than an atheist.

But why would an atheist worry about doing evil in the first place, if there's no afterlife and everyone in the world dies and becomes nothing?  What will it matter what you do in life?  What's the point of doing good if ultimately no one will get anything out of it? 

: Jezcoe  April 25, 2006, 11:45:57 PM

Only a Sociopath doesn't know the difference between good and evil.

Well... that doesn't really answer the question...  How do you know?  It seems like you're just saying "oh, come on, everyone knows!"  How?

: Jezcoe  April 25, 2006, 11:45:57 PM

Atheists do not have that comfort. This is the one chance to do right and good things in this world. The only person you have to answer to is yourself. There is no greater chance of good over evil in a theist than an atheist.

But why would an atheist worry about doing evil in the first place, if there's no afterlife and everyone in the world dies and becomes nothing?  What will it matter what you do in life?  What's the point of doing good if ultimately no one will get anything out of it? 

Most people by nature are good. It is not something most people have to work to achieve.

What do you mean not get anything out of being good if you are atheist? How about the love and respect of friends and family? How about good standing in the community? What about not wanting to go to prison? Are those concepts so hard to grasp? Cripes.

If your religion is the only thing preventing you from being a bad person, then I fear you and people like you.

What do you mean not get anything out of being good if you are atheist? How about the love and respect of friends and family? How about good standing in the community? What about not wanting to go to prison? Are those concepts so hard to grasp? Cripes.

I'm not sure why any of that matters if we all die and become nothing in the end...    Love and respect become only temporary feelings.

My point is... how does one define good and bad?  What is "good" and "bad"?  Is "good" just something that makes you happy?

If your religion is the only thing preventing you from being a bad person, then I fear you and people like you.

What's preventing you from being a "bad" person?  I'm not sure how you would define the "God" you don't believe in, but you seem quite religious yourself, for you believe in a difference between right and wrong though you can not exactly pinpoint where these values come from.

: julieb  April 26, 2006, 08:15:21 AM

What do you mean not get anything out of being good if you are atheist? How about the love and respect of friends and family? How about good standing in the community? What about not wanting to go to prison? Are those concepts so hard to grasp? Cripes.

I'm not sure why any of that matters if we all die and become nothing in the end...    Love and respect become only temporary feelings.

My point is... how does one define good and bad?  What is "good" and "bad"?  Is "good" just something that makes you happy?

: julieb  April 26, 2006, 08:15:21 AM

If your religion is the only thing preventing you from being a bad person, then I fear you and people like you.

What's preventing you from being a "bad" person?  I'm not sure how you would define the "God" you don't believe in, but you seem quite religious yourself, for you believe in a difference between right and wrong though you can not exactly pinpoint where these values come from.

Wow, you really lost me there. I stand by my previous post.

Concepts of good and evil, right from wrong are not steeped in religion or god concepts. Not doing to others what you do not want done to you is. Use the term "society" or "culture" it comes down to not wanting to pay the price of doing wrong or evil. People do not look at their lives as being temporary, they are most interested in the here and now. Being good as a way of life does not figure in to the strategy of a non theist as they do not except religious concepts of life after death. Don't confuse morality with the act of being good. Morality is a religious concept.

Don't confuse morality with the act of being good. Morality is a religious concept.

Do you know what the definition of morality is?  "Good" is quite a vital part of it.

People do not look at their lives as being temporary, they are most interested in the here and now. Being good as a way of life does not figure in to the strategy of a non theist as they do not except religious concepts of life after death.

So... basically atheists believe their lives are temporary and yet ignore their own beliefs when making moral judgments?

: Zeppelin  April 26, 2006, 08:58:23 PM

Don't confuse morality with the act of being good. Morality is a religious concept.

Do you know what the definition of morality is?  "Good" is quite a vital part of it.

: Zeppelin  April 26, 2006, 08:58:23 PM

People do not look at their lives as being temporary, they are most interested in the here and now. Being good as a way of life does not figure in to the strategy of a non theist as they do not except religious concepts of life after death.

So... basically atheists believe their lives are temporary and yet ignore their own beliefs when making moral judgments?

Hey Zeppelin. Thanks for helping out. I don't know WTF SPH is trying to say.

: Zeppelin  April 26, 2006, 08:58:23 PM

Don't confuse morality with the act of being good. Morality is a religious concept.

Do you know what the definition of morality is?  "Good" is quite a vital part of it.

: Zeppelin  April 26, 2006, 08:58:23 PM

People do not look at their lives as being temporary, they are most interested in the here and now. Being good as a way of life does not figure in to the strategy of a non theist as they do not except religious concepts of life after death.

So... basically atheists believe their lives are temporary and yet ignore their own beliefs when making moral judgments?

Morality is simply a code of conduct set by a society, a religion, or a personal code. A non-theist can still lead a good life and be judged immoral by religious or societal norms. Religious morality uses a rule book. Atheists use reason.

I have no idea what you mean by "basically atheists believe their lives are temporary and yet ignore their own beliefs when making moral judgments".
Atheists pay no attention to life beyond death scenarios. It has no bearing on how they conduct themselves.

Atheists use reason.

And what are these reasons?

Atheists pay no attention to life beyond death scenarios. It has no bearing on how they conduct themselves.

Exactly.  So what's the point in trying to lead a "good" life?  Ultimately nothing will come out of it.  So all an atheist has to strive for is being happy and feeling good in the present (which will be ruled by feelings more than reason.)