SPH I see where you are going with your argument. You seem to be arguing that without a higher power there is no reason to do good things. I say that doing good things is reason onto itself. There is no heavenly reward for these actions so the "immortal" nature of doing good passes down to those who will come after us.

peace

SPH I see where you are going with your argument. You seem to be arguing that without a higher power there is no reason to do good things. I say that doing good things is reason onto itself.

I'm trying to understand what an atheist believes makes a thing "good" in the first place.

: Zeppelin  April 27, 2006, 05:12:25 AM

Atheists use reason.

And what are these reasons?

: Zeppelin  April 27, 2006, 05:12:25 AM

Atheists pay no attention to life beyond death scenarios. It has no bearing on how they conduct themselves.

Exactly.  So what's the point in trying to lead a "good" life?  Ultimately nothing will come out of it.  So all an atheist has to strive for is being happy and feeling good in the present (which will be ruled by feelings more than reason.)

Reason is a rational motive for a belief or action. Using your brain instead of your faith.

Leading a good life is not goal oriented. Just because an atheist does not believe in heaven does not mean he doesn't want to get along with others in society. If by chance a person is good only in order to get into heaven then his priorities are screwed up. An antheist is not interested in being rewarded for being good. Living peacefully, happily and advancing in life is enough of a reward.

Lets try a little bit different perspective on this whole morality/good/bad issue and why atheists (or anyone for that matter) have a sense of right and wrong.

God is the ultimate source of what is good/moral. He sets the standard and is the embodiment of what is good, right, and just.

Now, with that in mind, let's move on to humans (I realize not all would even agree with that first statement, but bear with me for now). The Bible says that man was created in God's image. God is not flesh and bone, he's a spirit, a form that we don't really understand. So given that, obviously we are not created in his physical image, but rather we are created in God's image from an idealogical standpoint. We share his sense of justice, his sense of right and wrong. It's stamped into us at a very basic level. Although as mere humans, it's to a much lesser degree, and even that has been severely distorted given the corrupting influence of sin over time.

Therefore, humanity as an innate sense of right and wrong throughout the world and over a broad spectrum of personal beliefs and cultural influences, religious or not. Now obviously there are variations and disagreements on specific issues, but on a basic level, I think you would find agreement on generalized things - hurting a child is wrong, stealing is wrong, helping those sick or hurt is right, etc. You don't need to be taught those things - you "just know" because that's how God made us.

Lets try a little bit different perspective on this whole morality/good/bad issue and why atheists (or anyone for that matter) have a sense of right and wrong.

God is the ultimate source of what is good/moral. He sets the standard and is the embodiment of what is good, right, and just.

Now, with that in mind, let's move on to humans (I realize not all would even agree with that first statement, but bear with me for now). The Bible says that man was created in God's image. God is not flesh and bone, he's a spirit, a form that we don't really understand. So given that, obviously we are not created in his physical image, but rather we are created in God's image from an idealogical standpoint. We share his sense of justice, his sense of right and wrong. It's stamped into us at a very basic level. Although as mere humans, it's to a much lesser degree, and even that has been severely distorted given the corrupting influence of sin over time.

Therefore, humanity as an innate sense of right and wrong throughout the world and over a broad spectrum of personal beliefs and cultural influences, religious or not. Now obviously there are variations and disagreements on specific issues, but on a basic level, I think you would find agreement on generalized things - hurting a child is wrong, stealing is wrong, helping those sick or hurt is right, etc. You don't need to be taught those things - you "just know" because that's how God made us.

That is the most laughable post yet. Thanks Skippy.

Your god is the most evil thing to ever exist if you believe the bible. He kills and torments the ones who worship him the most. Not to mention all the wicked deeds performed by his followers. Well, like you said, he sets the standard. lol

He kills and torments the ones who worship him the most.

Such as?

(I certainly don't have all the answers, but I'm curious about what you've got in mind)

Not to mention all the wicked deeds performed by his followers.

I could go on a killing spree and say I did it all in your name, but that doesn't make it true. Just because people have done awful things in the name of God doesn't mean that God had anything to do with it.

: julieb  April 27, 2006, 04:05:15 PM

He kills and torments the ones who worship him the most.

Such as?

(I certainly don't have all the answers, but I'm curious about what you've got in mind)

Not to mention all the wicked deeds performed by his followers.

I could go on a killing spree and say I did it all in your name, but that doesn't make it true. Just because people have done awful things in the name of God doesn't mean that God had anything to do with it.

The story of Job would be a good example.

The story of Job would be a good example.

I discussed Job a bit over in the other topic:
http://cagematch.dvorak.org/index.php/topic,21.msg1032.html#msg1032
http://cagematch.dvorak.org/index.php/topic,21.msg1040.html#msg1040

Hmm, not entirely sure those links work, but they are over in the "Church making remarkable progress" thread near the end.

Your god is the most evil thing to ever exist if you believe the bible. He kills and torments the ones who worship him the most. Not to mention all the wicked deeds performed by his followers. Well, like you said, he sets the standard. lol

If we look at the Bible, God EVOLVES. In the old testament He is a Bastard. He creates the world but then destroys it with a flood. But He also promises not to destroy again by putting a rainbow in the sky. God APOLOGIZES which means He admits to MISTAKES. Damn! God, in many ways is like us, or is it, that we are like Him. The New Testament God does actually evolve to Man. God tells us that man can become like Him. That was the whole point about Jesus: that a man can become God. See, God who killed in the old testament now shows that He can LOVE also. Jesus' message was to love your neighbor. The evolution of God starts with an egotistical maniac who creates an image of Himself in the Universe. He is so in love with Himself that He recreates Himself. He is an angry God but later becomes more gentle and loving. Finally He gives of Himself by transferring His power to mere mortal men (as He did with Jesus and will do for ANYONE). God is great, but most of his followers follow the old God, not the new and evolved one.

Reason is a rational motive for a belief or action.

...

An antheist is not interested in being rewarded for being good. Living peacefully, happily and advancing in life is enough of a reward.

First of all, you say "an atheist is not interested in being rewarded" and then you name a reward...  

I know what the definition of "reason" is... I am asking what are the specific reasons an atheist should do good?  And what exactly determines what actions are "good"?  What is the reason a thing is good?

If I were an atheist, could you convince me to be good?  Or is it just some kind of an instinct, a feeling you have to be born with?  If you could get away with murder, would a feeling of guilt affect you afterward?

Your god is the most evil thing to ever exist if you believe the bible. He kills and torments the ones who worship him the most. Not to mention all the wicked deeds performed by his followers. Well, like you said, he sets the standard. lol

What if you don't believe in the Bible?

: julieb  April 27, 2006, 04:05:15 PM

Your god is the most evil thing to ever exist if you believe the bible. He kills and torments the ones who worship him the most. Not to mention all the wicked deeds performed by his followers. Well, like you said, he sets the standard. lol

What if you don't believe in the Bible?

Well I guess you be someone who believes something different.

My apologies SPH, but I'm have trouble understanding any of the points you are trying to make.

: Jezcoe  April 27, 2006, 07:00:49 AM

SPH I see where you are going with your argument. You seem to be arguing that without a higher power there is no reason to do good things. I say that doing good things is reason onto itself.

I'm trying to understand what an atheist believes makes a thing "good" in the first place.

I guess the absolute least thing that could be considered good would be to not do any harm to another. To do something that would cause a gain to someone else is good. To do something that would cause gain to another at the expense of yourself is altruistic.

I guess the absolute least thing that could be considered good would be to not do any harm to another. To do something that would cause a gain to someone else is good.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere... but as everything must have a reason, so must this, right?    What good is gain?

My apologies SPH, but I'm have trouble understanding any of the points you are trying to make.

I'm trying to establish that a belief in a difference between good and bad ultimately implies the existence of God.  Not some humanistic God as the Old Testament tends to illustrate when interpreted literally... but certainly an underlying truth to all existence, a difference between good and evil, which is God.  And, if this is the case, there must be more to life than just a physical mortal existence, for if after death we become the same nothing that we were before we were born, then "good" would be merely a meaningless psychological illusion.