Precisely as I said.  Corps aren't evil but the people who run them may be.  Each of those jerkwads needs to spend a good many years in the 50 bar hotel.  But just a darned minute here, Obtuser.  Who's the bigger crook in this picture?  The slimeballs who raped the companies or the even bigger slimeballs like Odumba and his dem Congress that raped the taxpayer to bail the crooks out?  Seems like my money went to Odumba, it sure didn't voluntarily go to a mismanaged corp like GM.  Say what good you like about GM, they haven't made a decent car in a decade or two, with the possible exception of the Corvette.  Even their pickups suck when compared with Ford which, by the way, didn't ask for and didn't receive any bailout money.  Looks like Ford is a decently run company with competent, capable and somewhat honest people running the organization.  That's why I own Lincolns.  You want a GM car?  Go buy one, then don't cry to me because you bought a POS.  I wouldn't even dream of owning a Cadillac, another junk car in a long line of GM junk cars.  Check their resale value, about equal to Chrysler these days.  Har!

It's no wonder the Japanese are killing GM in the automotive industry.  I wouldn't own one of those, either, my uncles and their friends gave their youth and their lives defending us against them, I'll be darned if I buy one of their cars.

 
ECA, "Social justice" is merely another term for the redistribution of wealth, where socially and economically everyone should be equal.  Is that socialism?

No, I read the Bible.  Nice myth and good stories.  Lots of gore and violence, pain and suffering.  Plenty of superstition.  Some great ideas like the 10 commandments and the golden rule (the real one, not "He who has the gold makes the rules"), but I'll leave it at that.  I'm definitely not a creationist nor do I like organized religion.  Who was it that claimed "Religion is the opiate of the masses?"

YOU WANT SOCIALISM..
FORGET money.
Each person is given the basics to survive...and if they want MORE they will work.
Wages are ALMOST all the same..but the longer you work the MORE you get.

Everyone pays into the system...ALL OF US.  not just the POOR/Un upper management..

The corps had a chance, when BUSH sr. and JR were around and they got rid of MANY controlling laws.
IF they dont want to LIVE/DIE by the rules of capitalism...THen LIVE by the RULES of regulation..

IF you want Gov protections, you LIVE by the regs.  IF you DONT want the protection, then you wont BE TAXED as heavily...  but we WONT protect you.

 
Did I say I wanted socialism?  Heck, no!  Capitalism is much better than socialism or communism.  You keep Karl Marx.

What's this nonsense of live by the regs or we won't protect you?  Are you so naive that you think your tax money is actually going mostly for useful services?  Yeah, right.  There were police stations and firehouses before federal income tax ever came along.  Now you're funding wars, social security, medicare, medicaid, the $5,000,000 study on the reproductive habits of beavers and a whole lot of other really useful stuff.  Sure did a great job cleaning up after Katrina, didn't they?  They'll fund crap like useless studies, but they won't fund NASA or the NSF.  How about funding this?

“The U.S. Botanic Garden has artistic displays of plants, exhibits, and educational programs promoting botanical knowledge through the cultivation of an ordered collection of plants; fostering plant conservation by acting as a repository for endangered species; and growing plants for the beautification of the Capitol complex.”

Run as a side project of the Library of Congress, the U.S. Botanic Garden received $6,275,000 in fiscal year 2005. While one could argue that the Capitol building needs plants, that could be done for far less, and the bulk of the Botanic Garden, if not the entirety thereof, should be sold to a private conservation organization.

$6,275,000 for flowers and shrubs!  I just love where my tax dollars go.  Not!

WELL,
i DONT BELIEVE IN CAPITALISM..
uNLESS YOU HAVE THE right PEOPLE RUNNING IT.

IF your company wishes protections THAN you need regulations on HOW/Why/WHEn the gov will protect you..

: ECA  May 31, 2010, 01:41:02 AM

WELL,
i DONT BELIEVE IN CAPITALISM..
uNLESS YOU HAVE THE right PEOPLE RUNNING IT.

You don't want capitalism?  Because there are a few crooks out there?  News flash --- there are crooks everywhere.  It's up to you to avoid them.  So you want a dictator running everything?  Telling you how much money you get to make and where you're gonna work?  Where you get to live?  How you get to live?  Don't worry about owning anything, you won't.  Do you want to move to Cuba or Russia?

Capitalism is no more evil than communism or socialism, in fact it's far more fair.  If you want to work and have a better idea, you make money.  If you don't want to work or you don't like money, it looks like the US will put you up on welfare.  Last place I want to be.  But at least I have a choice.

Capitalism is best because it doesn't rely on people being better than people are. That said, unbridled capitalism has gotten us into repeated messes. Free market is a crock of <I'm not allowed to say what here>. We haven't had free market capitalism anywhere anytime. What we need is fair market capitalism, which requires tight regulations to make a fair and not too destructive playing field. Corps will play by the rules, whatever the rules are. Right now, there are virtually no rules. Reagan changed the paradigm and everyone, repugnican or democrap (Papa Bush, Clinton, Baby Bush, and now Obama), rushed to follow him. He just may go down as the president who did the most to cause the total collapse of the Holy American Empire, if not the entire world economy. But, he did make a lot of very wealthy people extremely wealthy at the expense of the middle class. Gush up economics has worked its magic. Obama is still following this totally failed ideology, a combination of deregulation, low taxes for wealthy people and corporations, and borrow and spend economics.

How will we ever take back the United States? Is there anything left to take back?

And CAPITALISM, has nothing to do with running this country.  IT SHOULDNT.
ONLY in who has the MOST MONEY to stick their FACE on TV the MOST.
Running for OFFICE was a JOB OF HONOR..NOT the one who could BUY IT.

Lets look at a few of your statements..

"So you want a dictator running everything?"
how about WHICH CORP do you want running it..or which CROCK.
from STEALING PATENTS, to Dumping the railways after the GOV put in all the money to build it.
If they cant STEAL/BUY YOU OUT PERSONALLY for TECH, they WONT use it until it falls out of Copyright.
Corps that made promises on NEW/BETTER CARS that would get better mileage(1970's) and it ISNT any better.
Do you THINK the corp is going to pay you more?  or just those on the TOP MORE?
CORPS dont want min wage higher..

"Don't worry about owning anything, you won't. "
REALLY?  and if you aint a BUDDY to those on top...you PROBABLY wont either.
Corps like to pay 1 SMART person(very well) and put them in charge of 40-100 TRAINEES at 1/4 the wage.  jUST CAUSE they pay BIG bucks for CERTAIN persons, dont MEAN those people DO ANYTHING..Look at enron.  Look at the AIRLINES, those on TOP get paid GREAT saleries, and the pilots UPTO $20 per hour.  Did you hear about the person that worked 6 years, got his parachute,  20 years PAID retirement with the exclusion from BANKRUPTCY, his wages were $100m per year.
And your PILOT??  responsible for YOUR LIFE??

"Capitalism is no more evil than communism or socialism, in fact it's far more fair. "
This you need to explain..  AS I can see good and bad in all of them.  MORE FAIR in wages??  So Min wage has gone up 2.36-7.15 per hour in 25 years..TOP wages went up 100 times.
Corp tax BEFORE 1970 was VERY HIGH, then DROPPED to 30%.  Its estimated that if the CORPS paid full taxes, no with-holding no BEATING AROUND THE BUSH hiding PENNIES....NO CITIZEN would need to pay tax.  WORK?  hmm, thats a HARD one.  In capitalism, you want to sell the CHEAPEST THING for the MOST money.  Companies like to charge you $80 per hour to fix your car, the mech gets $20, the paper sorters get another $40 and the 3-4 BOSSES PLAYING GOLF, get the other $20..

Im on Social sec. Disability...I will trade you.  After 10 years Im getting $800 per month.

" Sure did a great job cleaning up after Katrina, didn't they?  They'll fund crap like useless studies, but they won't fund NASA or the NSF.  How about funding this?
Yes they did.  it was TOTALLY A SHAM..Including Haiti..
responsibility for the GOV. was to get GOV. property back up and working..
responsibility of HOUSING??  INSURANCE CORPS  That said "NOPE wind damage, not flooding cause the problem, you ARNT covered"  or VICE VERSA..  just to get out of PAYING...Capitalism at its BEST..

i WOULD LOVE it if the country would set aside and PAY enough that 1 PARENT could stay home and be RESPONSIBLE for their KIDS.

"Capitalism is no more evil than communism or socialism, in fact it's far more fair. "
This you need to explain..

I'll give this one a try. "From each according to his/her ability to each according to his/her needs."

1) You are never allowed to retire, or possibly even take a vacation, while still capable of work.
2) There is no need to do more than put up the appearance of work because you will never get more than your most basic needs.
3) If everyone were really willing to take this statement at face value, all would be working as hard as they possibly could for as long as they could taking only what they need. Who gets the leftovers between the maximal production of the workers and their minimal needs?

So, even with pure Utopian socialism from this allegedly high ideal of "from each according to his/her ability to each according to his/her needs", some few people responsible for determining each person's ability and needs end up very very wealthy indeed. And, to enforce this distribution, "Come and see the violence inherent in the system!! Help! Help! I'm being repressed."

So, call me a reluctant capitalist. I see the need for a strong set of rules to keep a fair market system going (NOT free market). However, I see even pure Utopian socialism as inherently flawed from its very foundation. Of course, I also see people as inherently flawed from our very foundation. So, perhaps I'm not the best person to ask.

... Now you're funding wars, social security, medicare, medicaid, the $5,000,000 study on the reproductive habits of beavers and a whole lot of other really useful stuff.  Sure did a great job cleaning up after Katrina, didn't they?  They'll fund crap like useless studies, but they won't fund NASA or the NSF.  How about funding this?

Wars:bad, social security:good, medicare:good, medicaid:good (but belongs with medicare and VA and replacement of all but the most elite private care for people who wish to pay extra, no need for 3 or 300 programs that should all be identical, but aren't), reproductive habits of beavers:very good (biodiversity is extremely important and beavers are a key species due to their wetlands engineering, why be a science snob? If you want funding for NSF, why would studies of ecology not be included?), NASA:good, NSF:good.

BTW, did you check to see if that beaver study was an NSF grant? Perhaps this was NSF funding at its best.

Frankly, I'm surprised by the list of money spend that you deride so heavily. Do you really think that funding wars and funding medicare are both in the same league, or even both bad? One kills people, the other should be expanded to be our single payer national system of medicare for all. We can't afford the price we're paying now for the privilege of the crappy care we get today. Social Security, despite all propaganda to the contrary, is probably the best run program of the federal government. Despite the corporate kool-aid, minor tweaks to the system will keep it running for at least 40 years. What other program can say that? What other "bankrupt" entity in the world has $2 trillion (with a T) in treasuries?

So, yes, let's fund NASA, let's fund NSF, let's stop funding war for oil. But, do we really need to kill our successful government programs to do it? You're way too smart to be in the "keep your government hands off my medicare" crowd.

 Scott said >> "And, to enforce this distribution, "Come and see the violence inherent in the system!! Help! Help! I'm being repressed.""

It may be a quote from the Holy Grail, but it's all too true.

As I said before, corps aren't evil, but the people running them may be.  There must be a good balance somewhere between regulation and making a profit.  If a corp can't make a profit, why bother?  Do you want to work for free?  With this president and the current unemployment rate, seems like a lot of people can't even work at all.  And that may be lack of regulation enhancing the greed of unscrupulous execs.  Remember when the airlines were regulated?  The prices were high, but the service sure was great.

Corporations will hire whoever can do the job at the least price possible.  Anything wrong with that?  Seems like those illegal aliens are really happy to work diligently for a whole lot less than the lazy hippies of the boomer generation.  I'm that generation, but lazy I'm not -- my corp makes money, is honest, pays taxes, does the right thing, builds a great product.  It doesn't steal like Goldman Sachs, doesn't cheat like American Airlines or Bank of America, shoots straight with the customers, has a great reputation, but I suppose if I cut corners and cheated a bit I could make a lot more money.  For a short while until my reputation hit the dirt.  I'll not do that, and I despise those that do.

But capitalism beats socialism or communism any day.  Like I said, if you don't like it, move to Cuba or pick the dictator of your choice and move there.  I'm sure you will be paid well.

You know, it seems like only the really bad corps make the news.  I guess the good ones aren't newsworthy at all.  There is no "feel good" minute on the nightly news at all.  Gee, I wonder why Odumba and the govt. are in the news every single day with one disaster or crook after another?  No wonder if you watch that junk you get disgruntled.  Garbage in, garbage out.

 
Scott, keep funding that social security.  If I had taken that money and invested it myself, I'd be a whole lot better off today.  But there's nothing I can do about that debacle.  I just hope beyond all hope that the program is still functioning in just a few short years so I can start getting some of that money back I put into it.  Same with Medicare, I just love a ride I paid into for decades that actually might pay off.

I don't know where you got your 40 year sustainable program estimate, but that seems a little long to me.  If I'm lucky, I won't be around to see the end of SS or MC.

Scott, keep funding that social security.  If I had taken that money and invested it myself, I'd be a whole lot better off today. 

Taxes are not levied for the benefit of the taxed. -- Heinlein.

You're rich. I know you don't believe that. However, you probably should check where your income is (or where it peaked if you are retired, and if so, I'm under the impression that you managed an early retirement, something not available to those living on a really tight budget) on the national scale. Social Security isn't designed to be your retirement plan. It's designed to be a safety net to keep some minimal standard of living for those who have no retirement plan. It's helping my Mom tremendously.

But there's nothing I can do about that debacle.  I just hope beyond all hope that the program is still functioning in just a few short years so I can start getting some of that money back I put into it.  Same with Medicare, I just love a ride I paid into for decades that actually might pay off.

Actually, social security, like our entire economy that people believe must continue to grow forever, is a ponzi scheme. You don't get your money out of it. You get mine. Then I get some younger schmuck's money, and so on and so on. But, do remember what it is and what it isn't. It's not a savings plan. It's not supposed to replace your own standard of living. It is primarily for those less fortunate than yourself, unless I'm seriously wrong about where you are on the food chain.

I don't know where you got your 40 year sustainable program estimate, but that seems a little long to me.  If I'm lucky, I won't be around to see the end of SS or MC.

Here's a good source.

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/webfeatures_viewpoints_ss_myth/

I am amazed how this article has sparked a debate while I was away but I think tonight I will catch up and chime in but for now since you guys have been talking about social security and corporations etc... here is another article that I came across.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303491304575188263180553530.html

Even the private sector of retirement management (pensions) are in danger due to miss-management or corporations using the funds for business reasons similar to the government borrowing social security funds and leaving a whole lot of IOUs.