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16
Water Cooler / GMOTW - M. Scott / Re: Hydrogen: Still a battery; but easier to split from water now
« on: June 14, 2013, 02:59:01 PM »
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And, since we know of no known source of free hydrogen in large quantities, hydrogen, from a human standpoint is not an energy source from our earthbound human-centric view.
Q.E.D.
Duh? When you make a specific comment like Hydrogen is a battery, period, full stop, of course it is not to be assumed that you mean something else modifies it! It would be imprecise to make such assumptions!
Now repeat after me: HYDROGEN BY ITSELF IS NOT A BATTERY, DAMMIT! |
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17
Water Cooler / GMOTW - M. Scott / Re: Hydrogen: Still a battery; but easier to split from water now
« on: June 14, 2013, 02:54:11 PM »
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You fail to remember that ALL combustion is not creating any NEW energy. The 2 Laws of Conservation of Mass and Energy prevent creating NEW energy, but just allow redistribution of where it is stored! All combustants could be considered batteries under your definition!
Yes. But the difference is that the batteries that are energy sources to us were charged 200 million years ago. Hydrogen as a battery or accumulator must be charged now to be used now.
Now also look at the electrolysis products of Oxygen and Hydrogen. They don't necessarily need to be recombined with each other. There are many other reactants possible. All of those reactions are exothermic, too, and may release more energy per molecule than the H2O by product!
Be specific please. Which one is more exothermic? Florine? Where are you getting the Florine or other chemical? How much energy does it take to get that separated?
Nature always wants to come to the lowest common denominator to satisfy the Laws of Conservation. Likewise, a chemical reaction will not proceed if it requires energy to be added to form the resultant molecular combination. That is where you are forming a battery to store heat, light, vibration, etc.
If you look on the Periodic Table, Sulfur is a sister Element to Oxygen, and will react [burn] in a pure Hydrogen atmosphere to form H2S the rotten egg smell gas! But unlike H2O it is highly acidic, toxic, etc. When it burns it has a eerie Green light, too! Some of the other reactants in solid fuel rocketry are very pretty colored, too! Zinc and Iodine burn with a very beautiful Red flame that issues Purple smoke, or Copper and Sulfur issues a Greenish Yellow smoke. All of these are exothermic, and if premixed into a closed container with an ignition device constitute a bomb. It is advisable for your own safety to not do so, as the shrapnel is coated with these poisonous reactants!
Agreed. That would be a bad choice. I also don't think sulfur is more electronegative than oxygen. Florine is. Hydrofloric acid is the strongest acid. So, that would probably be another bad choice.
Getting back to what constitutes a battery. It is any combination of two or more chemicals that will react exothermically to produce one or more by products of lower residual energy level(s). A dry cell battery, does have a contained reaction in the gel medium where the reactants slowly form the by product(s). When it has been in continuous use for a time, the dry cell will be warm or even hot to the touch. Both reactants required energy to refine them to the pure state, which is comparable to the electrolysis of water.
Hydrogen by itself is not a battery, but in combination with one of many possible reactants does constitute a battery.
Can we agree on that?
Sure. So, hydrogen and oxygen together make a battery. This was my point at the start. Sorry I neglected to mention the obvious that hydrogen must combine with the oxygen to release the energy. I thought that was self-evident. I guess not.
And, since we know of no known source of free hydrogen in large quantities, hydrogen, from a human standpoint is not an energy source from our earthbound human-centric view.
Q.E.D.
Regards which cathodic is most potent with the Hydrogen anode, just refer to the Electromotive series chart, Yes Florine is more energetic than Bromine or Chlorine, as expected.
And I will concede Hydrogen is half a battery and water is the byproduct of the Hydrogen/Oxygen battery, aka spent battery!
Sources of Hydrogen are some times surprising. Some natural gas wells contain Hydrogen, Helium, Argon, as well as some solids like Sulfur, Vanadium Oxide, Strontium, all of which are not always of commercial extraction quantities. Another useless source of Hydrogen is the high rarefied upper atmosphere where it is rather dispersed! |
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19
Water Cooler / GMOTW - M. Scott / Re: Hydrogen: Still a battery; but easier to split from water now
« on: June 14, 2013, 08:39:49 AM »
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AAaaaaarrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!
Whatever else you think, energy will never ever be created by the following process.
Separate water into hydrogen and oxygen.
Burn or otherwise recombine the hydrogen with the oxygen to make water.
Guys, I feel like I'm shouting into the near vacuum of intergalactic space. What part of this is so difficult to understand? Really? You will not create any new energy by doing the above two steps. Not today. Not ever. In fact, it is a loss, always every time. You won't even get all of your energy back from this. The win is if you can do it using energy from sun or wind or other renewable energy source. But, that's just storing the energy from that other source, not creating energy from hydrogen.
You fail to remember that ALL combustion is not creating any NEW energy. The 2 Laws of Conservation of Mass and Energy prevent creating NEW energy, but just allow redistribution of where it is stored! All combustants could be considered batteries under your definition!
Go back to the chart of electron voltages! Hydrogen was arbitrarily set as the median for several reasons, not the least of which is Hydrogen ion is the simplest/smallest!
Now also look at the electrolysis products of Oxygen and Hydrogen. They don't necessarily need to be recombined with each other. There are many other reactants possible. All of those reactions are exothermic, too, and may release more energy per molecule than the H2O by product! Nature always wants to come to the lowest common denominator to satisfy the Laws of Conservation. Likewise, a chemical reaction will not proceed if it requires energy to be added to form the resultant molecular combination. That is where you are forming a battery to store heat, light, vibration, etc.
If you look on the Periodic Table, Sulfur is a sister Element to Oxygen, and will react [burn] in a pure Hydrogen atmosphere to form H2S the rotten egg smell gas! But unlike H2O it is highly acidic, toxic, etc. When it burns it has a eerie Green light, too! Some of the other reactants in solid fuel rocketry are very pretty colored, too! Zinc and Iodine burn with a very beautiful Red flame that issues Purple smoke, or Copper and Sulfur issues a Greenish Yellow smoke. All of these are exothermic, and if premixed into a closed container with an ignition device constitute a bomb. It is advisable for your own safety to not do so, as the shrapnel is coated with these poisonous reactants!
Getting back to what constitutes a battery. It is any combination of two or more chemicals that will react exothermically to produce one or more by products of lower residual energy level(s). A dry cell battery, does have a contained reaction in the gel medium where the reactants slowly form the by product(s). When it has been in continuous use for a time, the dry cell will be warm or even hot to the touch. Both reactants required energy to refine them to the pure state, which is comparable to the electrolysis of water.
Hydrogen by itself is not a battery, but in combination with one of many possible reactants does constitute a battery.
Can we agree on that?
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20
Fight Club / Bare Knuckle Boxing / Re: Sucks to be poor in America--worse when female, worse when black, ........ etc
« on: June 13, 2013, 11:26:45 AM »
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ECA--as best as I can tell==right you are. Saw a news item about a Summer Lunch Program for young urban kiddies. Its only about 10% utilized because poor kiddies have no way of getting to their school in the summer time. Yeah--its tough to be poor, too poor to matter. The free market does have its limits==and then there are posts like Obtuser's that points out "our system" even makes it illegal to help the poor.
Imagine that in a christian nation?
You think being Black, poor, and inner city is worse than Indigenous, legally deprived of your human rights by a Treaty, and banished to a Reserve in lands so unproductive you can't catch enough food to feed your family? Ask someone who has been to both Haiti, and Appapitawiskat to tell you which is worse! |
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22
Water Cooler / GMOTW - M. Scott / Re: Zombie Lore Question
« on: June 13, 2013, 11:13:13 AM »
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Partial Quote: It occurred to me while replying to a post on my own blog...unquote.
Does it hurt when you reflect in your mind about other's postings? Sometimes a little neuron therapy helps, especially if it is in the higher proofs! ha ha ha
I'm sure there's a good proof of that. I'll go looking now. Perhaps something cask strength.
This Man bites Zombie story will get you caskigated one way or another!
Well, this has been a barrel of laughs. Now, I'm all tapped out.
Time for a new Keg! Staves well charred inside, and well aged! [all this rye humor reminds me of Gilbey's Number 8] |
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23
Politics Central / Soapbox - general discussion / Re: In the wisdom of the US Supreme Court...
« on: June 13, 2013, 11:09:28 AM »
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What is even more worrisome is that lack of legislative comprehension by elected reps. of the science and ramifications. Too many are corrupted by religion and money to be trusted with drafting and passing such rules to allow full exploration of the medical benefits. The natural DNA is not very different from manipulated DNA, and what influenced it to occur in nature is not really different from how artificial DNA is producible! Ownership of DNA is obviously a dangerous concept if you just remember the word SLAVERY! So where does the solution lie so that medical science can proceed to "cure" genetic diseases? That is the $64,000 question, in my mind! |
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24
Water Cooler / GMOTW - M. Scott / Re: Hydrogen: Still a battery; but easier to split from water now
« on: June 13, 2013, 11:00:05 AM »
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This type of device has been around for a long time and not used since it's cost of installation and maintenance kills the economic advantge when not used. In fact while it does work, and was being built in my own neighborhood, was not taken up by the trucking industry from the initial investment costs factor. The mfg wanted too much money for the device. Plus unless it was mandated for all transport trucks as a requirement, then it was economically a drawback to those who wanted to do the correct thing for the environment!
http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/index.php/Hydrogen_Fuel_Injection
Now back to Hydrogen as a battery. The H+ ion is as much a battery as is any other positive ion, chemically speaking! The very fact that it has been reduced [opposite to oxidized] by removing an electron, places it at an energy level of + one above the neutral zero. So why is Ca++, or Na+, or Fe+++ considered batteries?
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/183368/electromotive-series
This link is more descriptive of the process:
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/redoxeqia/ecs.html
See chart:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_electrode_potential_%28data_page%29
You will notice when scrolling down that H2 is at zero in this electron volts ranking chart!
It is my understanding that Hydrogen is no more or a less of a battery than other Elements, but that its electromotive voltage relative rating is used as the standard to rate all of the other Elemental atoms against when they form positive or negative IONS!!! It was used arbitrarily, but with reason with in the Chemical Realm due to its Acid and Base forming properties. Water is the Oxide of Hydrogen and the Hydride of Oxygen, but has a very significant special property. It forms a neutral acid / base solution when pure [this is not valid if dissolved salts are present] of Ph 7 on the scale of 1 to 14 [Litmus paper test scale]. It also forms a semi-covalent bond between one of the Hydrogens and Oxygen rather than a strictly ionic or covalent molecular bond. It is this special property which allows it to be the universal solvent, and the basis of most organic life on this Planet. [there are apparently a few anhydrous exceptions]. It is thought that this property exists due to the relative size ratio of Hydrogen to Oxygen atoms of 1:8 volume wise.
If Hydrogen is accepted as a battery then I should be able to find a link, but no! Hydrogen is a fuel used in fuel cells:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078499/Apple-plans-use-hydrogen-batteries-allowing-iPhones-iPods-hold-charge-WEEKS.html
Now please read this in depth and review your concepts of what Hydrogen truly is, Scott.
As for Hydrogen as a fuel in mobile engines, I and many others know that H2 is a serious danger beyond just the low temperature ignition point, it is such a small atom/molecule that most containment materials are too porous for safe use, plus H2 is an acid when in contact with many metals it attacks the metal's crystal boundaries and promotes crack growth. To turn John Q. Pubic loose with H2 is just asking for trouble! Hydrogen burns with a colorless flame which compounds the problems, too! But as a fuel it is the sharpest and most tunable for complete combustion! |
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26
Water Cooler / GMOTW - M. Scott / Re: Zombie Lore Question
« on: June 12, 2013, 06:41:18 PM »
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Partial Quote: It occurred to me while replying to a post on my own blog...unquote.
Does it hurt when you reflect in your mind about other's postings? Sometimes a little neuron therapy helps, especially if it is in the higher proofs! ha ha ha
I'm sure there's a good proof of that. I'll go looking now. Perhaps something cask strength.
This Man bites Zombie story will get you caskigated one way or another! |
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27
Water Cooler / GMOTW - M. Scott / Re: Zombie Lore Question
« on: June 12, 2013, 09:08:19 AM »
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Partial Quote: It occurred to me while replying to a post on my own blog...unquote.
Does it hurt when you reflect in your mind about other's postings? Sometimes a little neuron therapy helps, especially if it is in the higher proofs! ha ha ha |
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29
Fight Club / Bare Knuckle Boxing / Re: jpfitz --- Welcome to Cage Match
« on: June 11, 2013, 06:16:06 AM »
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Partial Quote, Scott:
.. Really? Well for generations since the telephone was invented, it required a court order to get a wiretap on an individual. Probable cause was required.
unquote.
Going back to the early telephone system, especially in the rural areas for decades, it was a party line design. Court ordered wire tapes became necessary when private lines were devised and installed! Conspiracy to commit serious criminal code violations are justification for wire tap warrants, and should be. The standards for granting these warrants require just cause, and that is where the tricky sticky level of the bar setting gets interesting. Illegal wire taps happen all the time, but just cannot be used for subsequent just cause! During my working days, I became aware of frequent mgmt wire tapping of employees, especially when union contracts were being negotiated, by BOTH sides! It became even more interesting when undercover police were hired as laborers in the steel mill! I recall one instance where a 5# bag of cocaine was discovered by a naive employee and shown to an older responsible foreman who advised senior mgmt. It was left in place and watched for a few weeks, but was later assumed to have been lost by the smugglers when the product it was hidden in was imported from outside Canada! I also recall where the laborers on shift refused to work under a certain billet yard crane operator when they saw him "shoot up" a narcotic while on duty! That case where the men with their union steward walking into the office opened some eyes and minds in both the company and the union!
What constitutes just cause is variable from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but by and large it is a valuable tool. And warrants are a good requirement since it raises the bar out of the realm of hear say, and liability!
Warrant-less snooping is not afforded the same public acceptance justifiably!
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30
Water Cooler / This and that / Re: It started here.
« on: June 11, 2013, 05:49:38 AM »
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This confidentiality is paramount in maintaining an economic edge on competitors! When insider information is leaked by either government employees, auditors, or rogue employees, or ex-employees, there is much case law suit history in this area! It may involve systems, patents, copyrights, that form this business economic edge. Publically owned/traded companies have a duty to share holders to maintain these advantages for revenue and profit on behalf of share holders. Because of this it is incumbent on government auditors to be diligent when reviewing any corporation's financial and operational records to ensue they abide by ALL Federal and State or Provincial laws / regulations!
This confidentiality is a major cornerstone to how our Free World is organized. Without it, this would be a much different World! |
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